Podcast by Seeds for Change

Transcript

Loraine: They want us to be silenced. They want us to not exist. They want us to disappear. But we come together, to find a solution together. So you are destitute, we're going to find a house for you. You are being put in detention, we're going to go and protest with you. We're going to find you a solicitor. You are being deported. We're going to block the plane.

Anna: Hello, welcome to the Organisers in Conversation podcast. I'm Anna.

And I'm Becks.

Anna: And we're from Seeds for Change. And in this podcast, we invite people involved in political organising to discuss different questions involved in their organising. So today we're going to be having a conversation about self organisation and survival with three amazing organisers that we've got with us, Loraine and Olivia and Mariam, and they're going to be talking about their involvement in projects of self organisation for migrants who are creating the things they need to survive. So if you could just each introduce yourselves, what organisations you're part of and just a couple of sentences about your work, that would be great.

Loraine: Hi, my name is Loraine Masiya Mponela. I live in Coventry, but I'm originally from Malawi. I'm part of Coventry Asylum and Refugee Action Group, in short, CARAG. So CARAG is a peer led, uh, self help community group. We comprise of asylum seekers, refugees, and migrants living in Coventry and surrounding places.

Olivia: Hello. Olivia is my name. Thank you for having me. I'm part of several organisations, Women for Refugee Women based in Old Street, Praxis for Migrants and Refugees based in Bethnal Green, Freedom from Torture in Finsbury Park, and others which I'll mention them later on. Mariam: My name is Mariam Yusuf, originally from Somalia and lived in Kenya. I'm from Women Asylum Seekers Together, based in Manchester. So this is a self help group for women who organise for themselves and stand for themselves. And they have a vision to see a world, a better world for women as they advocate for changes in the UK.

Anna: Thanks, everybody. Um, yeah, so, the reason why we kind of wanted to record this episode with you is, so I met Loraine at a housing conference and we were talking about, in our group about different approaches in our organising, and the idea of challenging dominant institutions or building alternatives. And Loraine said, our organisation is focused on building alternatives, because that's how we survive. That's what we need to survive. We live in a, in a situation in which the state doesn't care if we die and we have to create the things that we need in order to live. I thought that was really powerful.

Um, so, yeah, we wanted to kind of ask this question of like, what is the power of that approach of self organising, of kind of creating the conditions that you need to survive in a very direct way? How does that challenge the systems of violence and suffering that we live in? Um, and particularly that, that migrants are living in, in this country. And then I suppose the question that, that a lot of us face in our organising and in different issues that we're, we're fighting, how do you achieve that? How do you achieve self organisation? How do you, as people that are feeling powerless, how do you build your own power, build power together, and organise for the things that you need? So that's what we kind of wanted to explore in this episode.

Becks: So to kick us off, it'd be great to hear from each of you, like, what you're doing in your organisations day to day to organise for survival, like to organise for the survival of your communities.

Loraine: Yeah, I can start. So, I claimed asylum in 2015. By that time, I was living in Leeds. And when I claimed asylum, I was moved to Coventry. So the best thing that happened to me as I was going through the asylum process is to be introduced to Coventry Asylum and Refugee Action Group, CARAG. One of my housemates, where we lived, she said, Oh, there's a group that I attend, so we can go together. So I went there. And what I found is what changed me. I found that people were so close to each other, supporting each other, despite the challenges that we were all facing. In 2017, I became destitute and I was all over the place myself. But when I was introduced to CARAG, I saw a community. I saw people coming together, despite all the challenges that I'm talking about, but there was love, there was sharing, there was, uh, compassion, there was, uh, let's do this together, I can support you. So regardless of all things that people didn't have, but there was love amongst us. So that drew me to the group.

So as a group, we do so many things, but number one is the peer support. When we are in the group, when one person starts to talk about maybe a challenge they have faced, or for example, Oh, I've received a refusal. You find that someone else also opens up, Oh, me too. Or, um, I'm struggling to register with the GP. I'm afraid, I can't go. And someone will be like, I did that. So I can, I can help you, we can go together or things like that. And the fact that we come together to share food. To some, that meal is the only meal they've had, a warm meal for the week because of their situation because they've been refused, they are not on any support and they cannot work.

But along the way, we met wonderful people, organisations, like Migrants Organise, for example. The director for Migrants Organise came and supported us to put the problems that we have in order. To say, okay, what are the problems we have? We talked about so many things, mental health support, uh, we don't have access to mental health support. We don't have accommodation. We don't have food. We don't have this. We don't have that. And then he said, but what if there was one thing that you want to tackle, what is it? All of us, we said housing. Because majority of us were people who were homeless then. So we all said housing. He said, okay. So he, he trained us and we, we mapped like a way things that we should do, like researching in the local community, the opportunities that are there, are there any empty housing?

So we spoke to everyone, like councils, churches, everywhere, local leaders, counsellors and everyone. Just to find out if there's an opportunity where we can get some form of, uh, accommodation for refused asylum seekers. There was a funding that came up, to do a research into a housing project that is run for asylum seekers and by asylum seekers.

So before we even get deeper into that research, pandemic came. So we're like, okay, we were in the process of building this, but now pandemic is here. And we thought we have a little money from that 5, 000 that we were given, which was meant for a housing project, which we have not started, but we had already talked to the members. What does ideal home look like? What does, you know, what would you feel like you have a home? Doing all of that and consulting other organisations that are running housing projects.

And so when, at the midst of the pandemic, we thought, some people are homeless, what do we do? Can we house asylum seekers now who have been made homeless because there's pandemic. That now gave us the energy to start renting a house. So, we have what we call CARAG Housing Foundation, which is a house for refused asylum seekers, people who are still trying to get back into the system.

But even during the pandemic, we had the, what we called Right to a Meal project. The Right to a Meal project was also supporting people who were street homeless, and they were in Coventry, they were put in a house that didn't have access to a kitchen. I think they were getting five pound a day or something like that. But during pandemic, things were closed. So where do you go with your five pound to go and eat or to go and look for food. So we started a cooking project to give people at least one meal a day.

So these are just some of the things that we have done and we are doing. But we are also part of various campaigns, for example, myself, I'm involved in, uh, Status Now For All campaign, which is advocating for the legalisation of undocumented people in the UK. People who have been suffering for a long time. We have friends who have been here maybe 20, 22, 23 years, but they still do not have the right to stay. So we are campaigning so that everyone should have access to jobs, to benefits and things like that.

Olivia: Wow. Um, I think you've heard for yourself what Loraine explained, and that really means that if you are just surviving, the conditions are really devastating. So I also found myself in a situation where I had nowhere to turn to after my case being messed up for so many reasons. So I find a friend and the friend introduces me to Women for Refugee Women. It's an organisation supporting all women from all corners of the world who have come to seek safety in the country. So when I joined that organisation, we were just planning how we're going to get the power of organising and how do we get together and do something for ourselves.

That is where my journey started, because from there, I joined their drama class. And from the drama class, I've joined so many other activities. So this is one of the organisation, then Doctors of the World is an organisation supporting people to access health care. And then, uh, Global Community Projects, supporting women who have just arrived in the country. We're doing, um, simple yoga like gentle yoga and a bit of English.

So the whole purpose of all these organisations is that they run activities that are welcoming, where we can connect, share experiences, build skills, support one another, and get your voice heard. So I've been volunteering, I've had a lot of, like, training in the public speaking, uh, co facilitating. I've had, I've done drama, I've done performances, I've done research with Women for Refugee Women, we've got several, even now we have a research running, which we are looking at how women are affected, their liberties affected, and we are looking at three areas: work ban, detention, and hotel accommodation.

Mariam: Yeah. As for me, I'll start. Um, when I came into the UK in 2008, I was the quiet woman who doesn't talk much, but I think if somebody would talk about me now, I think I'm a different person. I think the challenges and the difficulties navigating the system and trying to survive has made me a different person that, um, I want to speak out. And, um, in my organisation, we have a lot of women who have suffered trauma. And when they come to Women Asylum Seekers Together, in short, we call it WAST, based in Manchester, they come through the doors, they are broken, traumatized. They just want to have a safe space. And we call that place the place for healing. Because over the years, you find women come in, walk through the door. They are very different after some few months, which means they've healed and they've got the confidence. And I am one of them.

And one of our values in my organisation is compassion, respect, inclusion, and empowerment. And empowerment is the strongest of all, because we women, we empower ourselves. Yes, we can get empowered, but we empower ourselves by sharing the stories between us. First of all, we start with that. Getting the confidence. Getting to learn about one another.

So the way we did it, we said some women are so traumatized that they cannot share their stories. So in our organisation, we formed a choir where women can just sing. And we found that really was a therapy for the women because some of them, they just want to sing, and in singing, they gain their confidence. So I was one of them that joined the choir and the songs we were composing ourselves to give a meaning to our story. So from there, I started joining organisations. So when I came to the UK, I was, I first went to detention and, um, in my organisation we've got a lot of women who came from detention. And they're so traumatized and they have lost everything. So for them to rehabilitate, and get their confidence back and get a standing and even get accommodation was something very difficult.

So, uh, what we do, we advocate. And, um, there's this, uh, Solidarity Knows No Borders, it's coalition of so many organisations. I would call it a movement. And the way it was formed that, what Migrants Organise did, they went into the country to talk to the people seeking asylum, so that they can build from the grassroots. So usually you find that when people try to mobilize communities, they do it from top to bottom. But this one they did it from bottom to top. Whereby the people with lived experience were at the forefront to decide what should be done or how can we build a movement. Because we felt that it is the people with lived experience who know what is important to them and what is the pressing issues.

And the way we build the Solidarity Knows No Borders, I think it's a movement that is really vibrant. People share resources, we share ideas, and we come together to collaborate. I want something to change. And I believe there's collective power when you collaborate.

Becks: So we talked so far about mutual aid, like the hot meals, getting people to the doctor, like peer support, all of that kind of thing. And obviously you all also do campaigning, demonstrations, public speaking. But like, thinking about mutual aid specifically, is there something about that, you think, that like is already challenging the system? Is like a part of organizing against the hostile environment?

Loraine: So when I first came in this country, I attended a training where someone was saying, the Home Office uses what is called the four D strategy. So the four Ds are destitution, detention, deportation, and death. So destitution is where if you were working, you were stopped from working. That was my situation basically. And while you are living in destitution, if you are unlucky, you're going to die in the street or commit suicide and things like that. Detention, the second D, detention, this is where people are locked up, put in prison- like places. Deportation, you are deported back to a country that you are running away from. So within these three Ds, the fourth D is death, which manifests in all these, you can die along the way. We've seen people dying while they are being deported, or things like that.

So the government, for me, what I see is the system wants us to fight, to be divided, you know, to keep blaming one another. But we come together, like Mariam has said, to find a solution together. So you are destitute, we're going to find a house for you. You are being put in detention, we're going to go and protest with you. We're going to find you a solicitor. You are being deported. So, you know, we're going to block the plane or we're going to do that.

So to me, it's the support that we give to each other. Communities coming together and showing each other love and safety and things that the system doesn't want us to, to believe in. And instead they want us to hate each other, you know, taking another community as the community that is contributing to our problems. Well, actually, we all know where the problem lies. So, mutual aid, I think it's a very, very crucial and important, um, aspect of our community because it's communities resisting division and rule that the structures, uh, put in place.

Mariam: Yeah, to add on that, how do you build a movement? You build a movement by empowering somebody. To me, mutual aid, it helps migrants create a bond, a solidarity. And share resources and share ideas. Without that people will not be able to come together to challenge the system. There is a problem with the system. They say it's broken, it's not broken. I think it's just the way the, the, the policies are made. That's how I see it, enabling the communities to come together, form a bond and work in solidarity.

Olivia: To add to that, I think the most important point here is migrants are now coming up, instead of being like represented, but they are representing themselves. Why I turn to this is because I'm living it. So if I'm living this, then I think I should be the right person to be like knowing where the problem is. I think I should be the person to really stand up and speak about it, other than someone to speak on my behalf. So when we get together, this is where we all share those resources in a collective way. We build our strength because when we are together, we are stronger.

Anna: Yeah, that kind of leads into my next question in a way, which you've kind of all talked about to some extent, but this idea of self organisation. So the idea that in your organisations, migrants take the lead and you take collective action on your own behalf to kind of support each other, to build your own power. And I suppose that's distinct from like, maybe a lot of support organisations for migrants in Britain, which use a kind of charity model, um, which are not necessarily kind of migrants at the helm. And so, yeah, like what you guys have all been saying about, you know, we know what we need. We know what change we want to see. We know what our experiences are. So I think you've made really strong arguments for kind of why that self organising is important and why it's kind of strategic as well for, like, ending the hostile environment.

So I suppose my question is, like, how does that happen? So me and Becks work with, yeah, lots of different organising groups, lots of different campaigns. And I would say this is an issue that like across the board, people face this question of like, how do we, as people who are lacking power, how do we kind of find our power? How do we step up and take action for ourselves? And so, yeah, me and Becks are involved in tenants organising. So we are part of a tenants union and so we... the idea is that tenants come together and stand up for our rights together and we support each other if we've got a landlord that's exploiting us or we stand up for our council houses together. And so, that kind of idea of self organisation is kind of at the basis of what we're doing. But sometimes that can be really difficult, really challenging to bring people into that and find ways for people to, yeah, find their own power, to become confident enough to stand up for themselves, to become confident enough to, to join in with political activity, rather than just kind of, us providing them a service. Which is like, doesn't create that kind of change in people that we need to be building. So my question is like, what is it that you do in your organisations that supports more people to have that power?

Olivia: That is very interesting. It is a journey as I mentioned earlier. Because first of all, I have to be conscious about, how do I engage? Is it going to affect my case? If it does, how do I keep myself safe? And, uh, have I been given the skills because what you're seeing me like sitting down now doing is not what I was six years before. So it's been a journey that I've gone through. Training and preparations and exposures to different audiences. And for me, I've been with my drama class going to universities because the drama facilitator is a lecturer in some universities. So I've been visiting with her, like co-facilitating sessions there and talking about refugee work.

So we can contribute in different ways. I might stand up and speak. I might just hold the placard. I might contribute to an article and I say my story. But it requires preparation. Because we don't just wake up one day and we can do it. And for different reasons, people have gone through a lot. They may not want to stand up. So those of us who can stand, we should be proud of ourselves and saying, no, we can do it because we're doing it.

Mariam: Well, to add to that, I'll talk about my organisation. We have women in different levels of education and literacy. And we always say, uh, at WAST, we are on the same, uh... we don't want to discriminate that somebody is well learned or knows better than the other. We try to let everybody fit in. And when I say fit in, when we want to do a project, we say, okay, everybody who is interested in training on public speaking, uh, how to engage with the media or how to go and share your stories. So it doesn't really matter if you are, if English is not your first language, then you are given the skills to learn the English and you don't have to really be very fluent as long as you can communicate and maybe people can understand you. So giving that power to the women, then they have the power within them so that if they go out there they can, uh, be able to talk in confidence.

I'll give an example. Uh, we used to have a lot of organisations sending emails to us that they want to do research. So they would come and they would do the research, like ticking boxes, they would ask the women, the women share their stories. So it kept on going until one day we say, how long will this be? Because I remember there's a woman who said, all the time they keep asking for the stories and nothing happened. It's time to change the narrative.

So, uh, when Manchester University approached us one time, we said, we are not going to do any research. If you want to include us, yes, we will do it together. So what they did, they trained us, a few women, on how to conduct research. And once we have finished the training, then we did the research ourselves on the women. I think the women got empowered and they were very eager to, to have that program continue.

And, uh, another example, when we were invited, again in Manchester, because we do a lot of partnership with Manchester University, to give a talk, like now we are coming with, as people with lived experience. So there were different organisations that came in there. So those organisations didn't bring asylum seekers with them, but they represented asylum seekers. So we sat at one corner, so as we were invited. So when we went, the facilitator was from the university. So when she was asking questions, at the end of the day, they said, actually, these are the experts. Even the organisation that came, they didn't know the answers. So sometimes we are marginalized, and not given a fair deal whereby when they say, okay, this is people seeking asylum, what we need for them to come and share their stories. And that's it. We can do more. You can be expert by experience. I can not be speaking much English, but the knowledge I have is better than even a professor who's sitting across me because I have lived it. I've got more to say.

Loraine: So, um, I just want to add on there. So, for example, in our group, most of us, we were already, you know, maybe people who are established in careers and in different forms of leadership. So in our group, usually we ask people, for example, some people were already chefs in their country, so we'd ask if someone is interested in cooking and then that, that becomes their part. Or some people, for example, if it was to do with speaking, we always ask wants to go and speak at this event. And sometimes people do want to speak, but then they say, I don't know how to write this speech. We can always ask them to say, write what you think first, and then we work with that. And then just help them to just make sure that the point is the exactly what they want to say.

Olivia, you also mentioned about the co facilitation that you do with the drama teacher. So us, even for the meetings that we have on a weekly basis, we rotate facilitators, who wants to facilitate the meeting next week. But it's a way of empowering ourselves so that we can take up responsibilities and that. But if someone is not confident enough, the starting point will be, okay, would you feel okay if we co facilitate the session? And from there, you grow.

Olivia: I think one other thing which I feel I should mention, is that I'm supported. Because engaging in all these activities, you don't walk, you don't fly, you, you have to take a bus, a train, or something. So, we had a conference one time, I was speaking. They had organised a very nice event in a very posh hotel, but they didn't manage to give the participants travel expenses. And I think it's only two or three who showed up. So I told the lady all these other issues involved around how you get people to activities. And then she was saying, really? Do we need to do all that? Yes! Because you need to support the people because they won't be able to get to the activities. The support you get from the, the travel expenses, the childcare, um, that warm meal, Loraine mentioned, that makes a big difference because some of us, that is the only warm meal you could have and you don't even want to miss it when you know that activity has a warm meal. You make sure you are there.

Loraine: Yeah, I think just to add on the support, actually, it's a very important point because I see this often where people do not really consider about the transport and the... can you just imagine someone who gets five pound a day and then transport is four pound 80 per day and you expect them to attend your meeting, all these meetings or trainings?

And sometimes also it's kind of like a long training, two, three hours, four hours, but there's just biscuit?! [Laughter]. To be honest, it really... Although people say, oh, it's not about the food or it's not about that, but to me, I'm like, no, it is also about that because we all survive because we have food in our homes and all of that. So, an asylum seeker, we've already taken her four pound eighty that she has used for transport and then there's nothing to eat. So I think you are making a very, very important point there. It is what makes all the difference for people to participate.

Becks: Yeah, totally. Uh, we were also going to talk poetry. Um, do you want to kick us off, Anna?

Anna: Yeah, so when we were finding out more about all of you, we realized that all of you are like poets or you're involved in writing or music. You were talking about the choir that you're involved in, Mariam. Um, comedy. I saw Loraine doing stand up this summer. It was amazing. And I suppose, yeah, that felt kind of really significant to these questions about your organising and about survival. And yeah, I was listening to Corinne Bailey Ray. Do you know the singer Corinne Bailey Ray? She had the song, go put your records on, play me your favorite song. And, um, she was at a festival that I went to this summer. And she has made a new record, which is kind of all about black history, and she was talking about her album, she did an interview. She said, people need culture as much as they need food in their belly. To feel that you're part of a culture that has expression, you need that to live.

And I thought that was really interesting. And it made me think about like all the art and music that's made by people who are marginalized and silenced, whether that's, you know, blues music or hip hop or Irish folk music, like these are the cultures and traditions of people who, who struggled, who struggled to survive, who struggled against the systems that they were living in.

And yeah, like, what does it mean for that, for that culture to exist in the world? Which didn't before? Or which is kind of attempted to be silenced? So yeah, I was kind of interested in like, all these things that you're doing, writing, poetry, art, what does that culture mean? How does it relate to resistance and survival?

Olivia: Uh, if I can start, I think for me, that idea of using either the food or the dance or the storytelling or whatever, just how do you do stuff in your culture, it's a way really of survival. When we talk about something that is so close to our lives, I think there's a way it is helping you to heal from what you've gone through and probably to give you those memories that, like, just when we were having lunch today, we talked about the different dishes and I could tell that everyone, it is just about the food they eat from their countries they all were all talking about first. And I said, so that is culture. And, uh, for things like writing poetry, for me, it was unlocked out from me by the drama group, because I didn't know how to write. But we started like, write one sentence, and then another one, and then it becomes a poem, and then you say, oh, okay.

Loraine: For me, I have found poetry to be healing. So, for example, when far right riots were happening, some people were circulating our street that far rights were coming there on a Wednesday night, 8 o'clock at night. And I live just outside the biggest mosque in Coventry. And so, when the far right riots were happening, and I was thinking, so they are coming to burn us tonight. In that moment when I was thinking about all those things, what I found helpful was writing my thoughts. And I remember I even wrote a poem about, 'Don't pour water on my burning body when I get burnt tonight'. So to me, it's, I can't even explain it, but it's a way how I process my pain, the way I process, um, my anger.

But I think Olivia and Mariam, you also mentioned about singing, for example, in WAST Manchester and the drama that Olivia has been involved in. As a group in CARAG, we also have different things happening like we have some people who love drumming and singing. We also have a men football team and things like that. So it's all part of survival. How do we survive in a hostel? So we have to find an idea.

Becks: Thinking about everything you're doing, like the mutual aid, the campaigning, the, like, challenging particular bits of law, like, the poetry. How do you see all of that fitting into a bigger struggle to, like, actually change the system entirely? Um, and, like, yeah, I guess, what do you think is needed for that more fundamental change?

Loraine: To me, it's about building the power from the ground. Because we all agree that the systems that are in place at the moment, the structural systems, are racist. Do we continue to operate in those systems where we know that actually racism causes trauma, racism is affecting people, racism is killing people? So I just hope that there will be a day where the movement will grow and our voice will be heard, where the whole system can be revamped and replaced with systems that work for everyone, systems that support everyone.

Olivia: So for me, I do believe first of all, if possible, overhauling the whole system would be the best option. But it may not be possible. So what can we do? I believe in campaigning on specific key areas like lift the ban on working and people can work, at least that would create better conditions for people when they're going through the system. Uh, recently, last year, I think we managed to get free school meals for all children. Again, it was through campaigning. These small, small wins... If we can, like, support the 28 day in detention, and end hotel accommodation so that people can be accommodated in the communities and they start rebuilding their lives when they're in communities... These are all, I think, the small areas which we could concentrate on and eventually they would yield big outcome or impact on the people seeking safety.

Mariam: My view would be different. If it was my wish or my dream, well, like you said, abolish the whole system. Yes, we have little wins. But to me, these little wins might not have effect to some asylum seekers. For example, a woman or a man seeking asylum who speaks Arabic and is given right to work. Where would he find work? He lives in a house with poor housing accommodation. That's his need. He doesn't want to work, but sort his housing. He's living in a hotel. He's not had an interview. Sort his interview out. Somebody's homeless, has been released from detention, or is facing deportation. Close the detention. So, to me, abolish all the small wins, and overhaul the whole and give status to everyone.

Loraine: I would, I would really agree with that, because when you were talking about, oh, 28 days detention, I was talking with someone who has been in detention to say, what do you think about the 28 days in detention? He said, I think those who started that campaign have never been in a detention centre. That is the problem where you come up with a solution when you, you don't have the experience yourself. Nobody who has been in detention centre would ask even for one day. Nobody.

So, much as it looks easier when you haven't been, I haven't been, but my friends who have been in detention, when they talk about their story, they cry. None of my friends who have told me their detention story who doesn't cry. People who are strong. Women who I'm like, this is the strongest woman I can go to. But when the talk comes to detention, they cry. How many times I was taken to airport? How many times I was treated this? Five hours I was just sat at the home office place as I, they wanted to report. So it's kind of like a pain that we cannot cross. So, much as on paper, it sounds good, oh, instead of indefinite detention, it has to be 28 days. But what does that 28 days in detention mean to someone who is in there?

So what we should be asking for and what we are asking for is equal rights. Just give asylum seeker equal rights. Then we can live as human beings.

Becks: What does it mean to fight to abolish the system?

Olivia: So it's, it's really very hard, but the whole point is about not giving up. And why not giving up? Simply because you have not started this campaign yourself. One time I was in a space and one organisation, the person who was running that organisation said they have been running the campaigns for the last 20 years. I said, what? And you are still here? Still doing the work? So that really touched me and I said to myself, wake up. If they are still standing, it is not something that you are going to end yourself. You just have to do the best you can do when you are there at that time. Keep going. Once you are tired, it will continue. Some other people will take it on.

Loraine: Yeah. So in our, in our group, we have this thing called existence is resistance. So the voice out there, they want us to be silenced. They want us to not exist. They want us to disappear. But we say we are here and we're not hiding. To me, that moves me. But also, I also feel like I have a sense of responsibility because even before I came in Coventry, there were other people fighting for our rights probably before we came in. So we, I also have this responsibility, this thinking that I have to fight for other people that are coming. Because now I have status, I'm a refugee now, probably I can disappear and get on with things, but I feel like if I do not speak up for other people, if I do not fight to make the system better, who will do it? Do we want people who come after us to also face the same hostile environment that we also went through?

So for me, abolish means no borders. Because there's already some people with certain passports, with a lot of money, the borders do not apply to them. So how, why can't we not extend that to everyone? Where we just live freely? And we know that migration is part of life. We always move. People have always moved. So for me, abolishment will mean no borders. I will be looking forward to that day.

Anna: Thanks for listening to this podcast. We're Seeds for Change, we're an organisation that runs training and creates resources for people involved in campaigning and organising. So get in touch with us if you want any support. Thank you.

Podcast: Community Organisers in Conversation

Episode 3. Staying alive: Self-organising for survival

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