Podcast by Seeds for Change

Transcript, part 1

Zara:[00:00:00] When we talk about what happened over the summer, murderous people had took to the streets to attack specific parts of our communities. And what I also saw was a whole part of our society not engaged in political spaces, not engaged in the far right, not engaged in the left. But were curious. And on mass scales, there was young people. Loads and loads and loads of kids.

[Music: Aum by K Monday]

Anna: Hello, welcome to the organisers in Conversation podcast. I'm Anna.

Becks: I'm Becks.

Anna: And today we are talking about antifascism, and community organising as antifascism. Um, and we're in Manchester with three amazing organisers. Do you want to say hi?

Jamil: Woo, hello.

Dale: Hello. Yes. So I'm Dale Johnson, chair of the Harpurhey Neighbourhood Project CIO. I've been at it since 2013. Uh, got sanctioned from the monsters. Went to the centre, local community centre, got help and I've been helping out there ever since. And, uh, that's it.

Zara: Hi, I'm Zara Manoehoetoe. I'm a youth worker. Community organiser. Uh, if I got into, like, all the groups that I'm part of, we'd be here for an hour, so I'm not going to bother. But yeah, I'm just, um, if there's something to do with abolition and anti racism in Manchester, you'll probably see my face there.

Jamil: Hello, yeah, my name's Jamil. Uh, community worker and cultural worker in Manchester. I work with a lot of groups, telling stories and producing different events with weird and wonderful, uh, people. And I've always been born and raised in the city, and I'm the secretary of the anti racist committee for Greater Manchester Tenants Union.

Anna: So I guess like, where this idea for this episode came from was I heard Zara speaking at the Greater Manchester Tenants Union Conference, um, in September. And there was a discussion about like tenants unionism and anti fascism, in the wake of like the riots and the racist mobilisations over the summer. Which I guess we were all part of like, the counter demonstrations that happened, but I guess like the conversation was kind of around like the insufficiency of that as a response to insurgent fascism in England. And how that sort of reactive response isn't addressing the root causes of, like, where fascism is coming from. And, yeah, there was just a really, kind of, interesting conversation about the community work that is needed to actually tackle what's happening. So, yeah, I just, like, really wanted to get people together to talk more about that.

Becks: So maybe as a place to start, like, thinking about the thing we're calling fascism and, like, what it looks like, I guess it'd be interesting to hear from each of you, how's that changed over your lifetime? And then, after, we might come on to how does that shape what we, what we're doing?

Zara: I think, like, I was born in the 90s. I feel that I've watched fascism grow through the state as I've got older. Um. What is considered racism and far right on the streets and in community, for me is a direct result of kind of those that we have in power, what's happening overseas. Like here we live in the UK, belly of the beast, heart of the empire. What our government, what our armies, what our imperial conquests have done as a nation elsewhere has taken root here. And as it's normalised through the state it's become normalised in communities. So like racist attitudes, racist attacks, I think, like huge, significant events in my lifetime. I mean, we can't ignore 9 11. We have to think about that and what that meant for the context of like Muslim communities, um, Arab communities, Islamophobia specifically, and the policies that have been enacted. Like terrorism is a really interesting thing for me because the state are terrorists, but it's the people who are policed for terrorism.

Um, and then I think that kind of pumping of kind of the imperialism, rise of fascism here domestically, in kind of state narratives around who's deserving and undeserving. What previously would have been like workers and non working people or disabled people. How we've seen that manifest combined with austerity, and how our communities have been pillaged by the state.

All those kind of things, I think, have created a melting pot for far right ideology to really take hold in communities. As people go without, we're all struggling, we're all fighting the [00:05:00] same problems. But depending on where you're situated in community, what education you've got, what understanding you've got, the context, your own experiences, that's impacting where you're placing the blame.

Jamil: I grew up in the 90s as well, like, so born in 93. And I think that that was, you know, I grew up kind of on the tail end of like the National Front, and a much more explicitly, you know, anti black, you know, Nazi aligned, uh, foot soldiers, basically. And then something happened just prior to 9 11 as well, which was the attempt for the fascists to become electorally respectable. And the idea that, you know, they could actually be standing candidates and getting away from just, you know, this constant like street battles. And then with 9 11 that accelerated all of it. And I, you know, I remember growing up watching the birth of the EDL just pop up in the space of a few years and become like, you know, a significant player.

And then alongside that, the birth of the internet. So you've seen all these little groups like, you know, the BNP, the EDL, kind of have their moments of success and then slowly peter out. But alongside the fall and rise of these organisations, the thing that's been most interesting is the way that mainstream conversation has constantly shifted further and further to the right. Which has meant that the fascists are just kind of, you know, they've had to either occupy harder and harder positions or they've just been ingratiated into the normal conversation anyway.

Um, so that's the most defining feature I think I've noticed, is that the groups are one thing and the patchwork of like individuals that stand, you know, as far right as possible and whatever is one, but the way that this conversation has just become completely normalised.

And I remember 10 years ago, so it would have been like, David Cameron, 2015. And I remember it was like the front page, and there's millions of them, but it was, um, 'UK Muslims defending jihadis' or something like that. And it was on the front page of the Daily Mail. And that was the prime minister at the time. And then, you know, with the hostile environment and just all of it, it's like the... These conversations weren't happening on that level in normal politics when I was growing up.

Dale: Well, for me, I'd start off as I was growing up in the 70s. There's only two black families in the area, in Crumpsall at the time. There was us and the Nigerians up the road, Olu and his brother Tom. So Crumpsall Lane School, it was a bit tasty. You know, you'd have to do your own battling and whatever else.

How's it changed? Has it changed? There's something that Jamil touched on. And he said growing up in the 90s. Now before that, 1978, so I was 16 then. Never forget this. And it just hit me when you said it. Thatcher. But she was on the telly. And I'll never forget her saying, This country has been taken over by an alien culture. Never forget that. And at 16, this is how dumb I was, I thought, when did the aliens land? I said that to meself. When did the aliens land? Not thinking she was on about my parents. And, um, when Idi Amin kicked out the Asians out of Uganda. She was meaning them as well. It just hit me when you said that then. And it's that. Then you had Enoch Powell before that with his rivers of blood. So this is something that's got ingrained into the white working classes.

Zara: That's the interesting thing. You've just said it's been ingrained into the white working classes, but at the same time it's been embedded into the policy and the legislation of the elite. Ultimately, whatever happens on the ground is first coming from the top. But because the behavior is seen then as like the violent mobilisations that we saw over the summer, they're the ones that get labeled as thugs. And don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing that behavior and nobody should be setting fires to no one. But their attitudes and their actions have been fed by the political elite.

And this is why I find, like, it really interesting when we have conversations about, like, holding people to account. Like, what, what do we actually mean when we're having those conversations, like, if we're talking about politics, the system isn't set up for us to hold it to account. That's why I really believe in, like, community power and relationships as being kind of the bedrock at which we can disrupt the harm and the violence that we're seeing manifest on the streets.

Becks: I wonder if this is a good moment for like, hearing about the community organising that each of you are doing and like, how that's set up to address the things we've just been talking about.

Zara: My organising context, I suppose comes from different places. So like NPNP, Northern Police Monitoring Project, this is an abolitionist organisation supporting communities who are affected by police violence, racism, harassment, brutality. I'm a youth worker. I'm employed by an organisation called Kids of Colour, which is the only anti racist youth organisation in Manchester. Doing bits. Shout out to my amazing team.

Um, and then Harpurhey Neighbourhood Project is my true love. [00:10:00] Um, is a community centre that is, you know, owned and ran by the community. We are working on becoming a centre that caters from cradle to grave. We're looking at how we build independent infrastructure that helps community members navigate the hostility of the state. And the neglect that they face and the violence that they face.

Dale: We're always asking the people of Harpurhey, what do you want to do? What activities and ideas have you got that you would like to run in the centre? Where I come from is, when I first moved into Harpurhey, so, nineteen years I've lived in Harpurhey. I went into the local pubs, and it was always the same. Don't talk about politics and religion. But it always got on to it. Somewhere along, especially politics, especially, it always come back to, bloody foreigners coming over.

And I said, whoa, I said, listen, my mum and dad come over, doing the jobs your mum and dad didn't want to do. So it'd be like, yeah, you're right, Dale. And you know what, Dale, you're all right. You're not like the rest of them. Oh, fucking hell. You're not like the other type of blacks. You know, you're really insulting me now. Said I'm just being human. I said, it's you lot need to change. And hopefully by talking to me, you get, you're seeing the light.

And that's... That's what I'm on about, the organising bit, is when I got to the centre. Just welcome anybody in. If they're taught, don't be saying paki in here, it's Asian. And that's it. That's the bollocking I'd give them. Don't be saying no paki word in here ever. And they'd learn then, say, alright Dale, Asian. So slowly they're seeing the light.

That's where I'm coming from. And I always try and remind Zara and anybody else, the centre is part of the project. If that centre wasn't there, we'd have to work in the pubs, in the parks, in people's houses. So it goes on if the centre gets burnt down. So when you say about the organising, it has to come from the community. What do you think? What do you want? And we're there to hopefully guide them in the right direction. Well, all these immigrants are coming over, taking everything. I said, oh, you're wrong there. And I can prove it to you. Come and speak to Abdul. He's just come from thingy. Ask him about how's he got here and why he had to come over. And that's the way, that's my sort of idea.

Zara: Where is Harpurhey? Because it's a beautiful part of the city. North Manchester is like, been home to me for a long time, home to you for a long time. Harpurhey is one of the hearts, beating hearts of the north side of the city. It's a very special place. It's like old school community. And it's funny that you say that about the pubs, like don't talk about politics and religion, but the pubs were the backbone of the trade union, movement back in the day, do you know what I mean?

There is room for, for politics in pubs and no matter whether you're having a do in your kitchen or on a night out, someone's talking about politics somewhere. And this is what I also think is really interesting is this idea that, you know, working class communities aren't politicised. We're highly politicised. Everything that surrounds us is political. Every action we take, everything done to us is political. We just don't necessarily use the same language as people on the left, who would describe themselves as leftists. My political ideology is situated on the left. Do I consider myself a lefty? God, no. I don't necessarily feel safe or welcome in those spaces.

Um, but I really do see myself as somebody who in Manchester invests in relationships with people from across leftist organising spaces. Which means that I end up like getting pulled in all different directions. Um, but it means that I've met some amazing people and do some amazing work and really believe in linking up work and that we're working together and that we're complimenting each other. Um, so yeah, I suppose that's me.

Jamil: It's a big, it's a big question, isn't it?

Dale: Yeah, go.

Jamil: Like, you know, what work are you doing that contributes towards anti racism or whatever? I think there's two things, it's like, you know anti racism, the idea of it, it's an amorphous term. Do you know what I mean? Like to be anti general racism. It's like, where are these things like concretely? Where is it, you know, where's the harm happening? And where is racism being produced? And it's clear when a bunch of people turn up on the estate under the banner of, you know, 'students against tyranny' or when, you know, when the far right organise with their various acronyms and you turn up, then, you know, cool, kick up a ruckus and, you know, there's maybe work that needs to be done.

But other than just tailing them and, you know, just turning up in civic square after civic square and shouting at people, like, in terms of meaningful work to combat the rise of racism, I don't actually see anything really happening. Apart from really good local initiatives that are happening in various different places, but there's not like [00:15:00] a networked conversation or a networked... There's not an idea. There's not a narrative. There is no story. You know what I mean? I think that's why, you know, I'm always wary of being an alarmist or somebody who operates from like unnecessary fear, but the situation is just a bit baffling at the moment.

I'm the secretary of the anti racist committee for Greater Manchester Tenants union. And the reason I stood for that position was specifically because in Manchester and beyond, particularly on this island, the conversation around racism is constantly being predicated around resources. And it's coming down to the fact that our bricks and mortar is not safe.

Our houses aren't safe. Our nanas aren't safe. You know, and it's coming down to this, who's caring after the most vulnerable? From the elderly to children, um, to the sick, and the constant, you know, the positioning of vulnerable people, white, vulnerable citizens, as if somehow the harm that's being committed against these individuals is happening because of people arriving at boats at the border.

And, you know, as you were saying before, we know that it gets pushed top down. And all the reasons why the areas that I've seen or witnessed or lived in where racism is taking place, those areas are deprived because of historic cuts, you know, lack of housing investment, cuts to the education service, cuts to the youth service, cuts to social care, rada rada rada.

So I think the thing that I find interesting is like, where is the meaningful work? And I don't think it's helpful generally to constantly be talking about like 'anti racism', because I think the conversation then just becomes abstract. I think the thing is like, what are the material conditions that people who are at risk of racism are speaking about? And how can we be actively working towards changing those conditions for the better?

Because otherwise we're just constantly having arguments with daft ideas in people's heads. And trying to change things that are actually really inbuilt. Because people are scared, and people are terrified, and trying to convince them that the problem isn't that, is a lot harder when people are still going back to homes that are not safe to live in. That don't have, you know, food in the fridges and the kids are struggling at school and this this this this.

What are we materially doing to make people's lives better? And how can we be consistently doing that in a sustainable way and celebrating and platforming that? Because that's the only thing that's going to work. Cause you said it before about the far right, you know, the whole, what's the whole host of things they'd be doing like food banks, country walks, festivals, supporting the homeless, doing, you know, doing pensioner support work, like, you know, doing the work that the left should be doing.

Dale: Exactly.

Jamil: But no, doing the work that the state should be doing.

Zara: Yeah.

Dale: Cause we are doing it.

Jamil: Like, back in the day it was really clear. The BNP are going to stand in certain elections, we destroy them electorally.

Dale: Yeah.

Jamil: The EDL are going to arrive in certain areas...

Zara: We chase them out.

Jamil: We chase them out. And it was really clear, like, I don't mind, a group called the English Defence League that want to rampage through the city, we organise. And we, we, we do what we can. That's work, right? But now, that's, you know, when were the EDL at their heyday? 2014, 15, whenever. It's been over a decade. And now all we've seen is just like this splinter cell of Patriotic Alternative, Britain First, Homeland this, all these various groups that are just doing the same tactics. And the left have got ourselves caught in the trap of following them around the city over and over again and just screaming at people in city centres.

Zara: I think you're onto something there. I also think... I I also think it's interesting how they've really got a lot of people who've been politically inactive for a long time engaged in their mobilisations. Older people, like, that Saturday, like people... and it was really interesting for me, like, watching some of the women who were there. Like, very nicely dressed, look like, you know, school receptionists, GP receptionists, people who you'd see working in the library. And then they just kind of disappear into, back into society on the Monday. And it really made me think about how... who's reaching who, and how they're reaching them. And it is, coming to what Jamil was saying about that they are working to form relationships around people's needs. That's what they're doing and they're doing it well.

And like my big thing as well, over the summer, what I was, I was terrified by, I've been working in youth work now for like 12 years. I've been organising for the same amount of time. I've been affected by state violence since I was born. Like solidarity is what gets the goods in the most minute ways and on a large scale. And when we talk about like what happened over the summer, people could have been burned alive. Like, people were out to kill. Like we cannot deny that, right, like murderous people had took to the streets to attack specific parts of our communities. the response to that was outrage, fear, mobilisations, anger, further division, like loads of different things and lots of scrambling to respond.

And what I also saw was a whole part of our society not engaged in political spaces, not engaged in the far right, not engaged in the left. But were [00:20:00] curious. People who went outside to have a look at what was going on. And on mass scales, there was young people. Loads and loads and loads of kids. Now, as a youth worker, as somebody who remembers being a kid, who was curious, I get it. 100 percent I get it. Of course you're gonna go and have a look at the big fight. Remember what it was like at school? Somebody had a fight in the canteen, the whole school was running round. So, if this is happening on a mass scale in town, everyone's running into town, jumping on the tram, getting a bus, riding their bikes down to have a look and a nosey.

And I walked past this one guy who was with, you know, the fash. And he was going on about not being able to get a GP appointment, not being able to get into a, have a house, not having enough money to feed the kids, jobs not paying enough for people to live. And every single argument that he was making, like every single problem that he had, was completely and utterly valid. And his argument was that the government was wasting resources that could have been dedicated to all of these problems into housing people seeking asylum here.

And for young people, there was probably maybe about 100 young people, and when I say young people, I mean under the age of 25, stood around him. And to them, everything that he was saying probably made some kind of sense. It was a feasible argument. The government does spend too much money on fucking hotels and the hostile environment, right? It does spend too much money in preventing people from functioning as part of our communities here. It spends millions and millions of pounds on preventing people who come from different countries from gaining employment, from going to schools, from all of these things that, you know, citizenship I'm saying with the air quotation things because citizenship is bullshit, but like. The arguments that they're presenting consume people, like, it really does take root for people.

And now me as a youth worker who works for an anti racist youth work organisation, and we're thinking about systemic racism while thinking about interpersonal racism and what young people are experiencing at college. And I'm thinking about how unfit for purpose, like, it seems with the local education authority with newly arriving children being placed in schools, unable to speak English, often. Or having very low English language or having good English, but with an accent. And then what they're experiencing there.

And I'm just thinking how, as a youth worker now, how is the sector, whether that's education, whether it's youth work, what are we dealing with, for one? Because we don't know the extent of it. How are we thinking about how we're navigating the radicalisation of children and young people? From both outside sources, online and at home? And what are we doing to respond to that, that is not punishment and criminalisation and surveillance? Because the only answers that we have currently in our communities to respond to racism, discrimination, harm, violence, is surveillance, punishment, control.

And if there was one thing that I wish everybody would understand, punishment is not a preventative mechanism. If punishment prevented people, we wouldn't have people in prison. What I really want to understand is how we can build solidarity in communities with young people, that they are able to understand the way in which the systems surround them, and that their struggle is linked with the new girl who's come from this country far away.

So when I was there on that day, I'd, I'd gone out with the anti fash mobilisation. And then came back to see, um, Piccadilly Gardens, and at that point, took off my anti fash organiser head, because I'm not, I would never describe myself as like an anti fascist organiser. Anti-racist yeah, abolitionist, yeah, but I'm not deep enough in the anti fascist circles to ever... But I'd gone out to mobilise with them, but when I came back, I came back as a youth worker.

My role then was not about opposing the far right. It was about taking young people away from the harm of the far right. It was about telling hijabi girls, I'd rather you didn't walk into that crowd and challenge them. It was about diverting people past. It was about helping people get into taxis. It was about telling this one kid off and saying, Come on mate, we're not having none of that. It was about challenging a few young people that I'd worked with. Is this the place that you need to be today? Should you be here? Like, shall we have a conversation about this in a different setting rather than getting into it now?

And then leaving that space and thinking we need to create conversation, like spaces for conversation around this. We can't shut that down. Cause you know they're getting shut down in school. You know that the teachers don't have the time to even welcome a conversation, a critical conversation about what's happened over the summer.

The schools were shut, for one, when it happened, so they didn't have access to their educational environments. Youth clubs are actually not that well engaged in the [00:25:00] age range of 14 plus. But they're the ones that was out, the 14 to 25 year olds, right? And youth work cuts off at 18. It's not funded for after 18.

So for me now, I'm really interested in what's going to happen in the next 10 years. For this generation of young people, what they're growing up on, the narrative, the conditions that they're growing up around and how that manifests then in their personal political ideology. Do you get what I'm saying?

I'm stopping now. I do care about the kids. It's not just a job.

Jamil: It's like during the riots, isn't it, when that woman had the cane, during the 2011 riots, in August, after Mark Duggan got killed. Which is interesting, you know what I mean, nearly a decade later, both in the middle of August, as there are deaths. Boom. The black community and white community separately rioting.

Zara: But I also feel like the feel in community is very similar to what it was in 2011. And I was surprised that after Chris Kaba got shot, we didn't feel the same kind of trigger moment.

Jamil: And how many people were sitting there? Cause I remember getting quite... and other youth workers, community workers were saying, to the police, last year, prior to August, were saying: there's going to be some kind of upflare and it's going to be along racial lines, but it's gonna be white kids this time.

And I remember youth workers who are deep in, people who worked in prison reform services, saying to the police, particularly GMP, saying, look, we, based on our intelligence and our just general understanding, there's going to be an outburst of racialised violence that's gonna happen in sometime around summer.

And like, you know, it wasn't Mystic Meg stuff. It was people saying, like, we're on the ground, we're detached youth workers, we're working with people who are radicalising. Like, we're telling you, like, people are angry, and it's going to find an outlet. And often a tragedy happens and boom, shit burns.

Zara: I also find it really interesting, like, now, post 2011 uprisings following the shooting of Mark Duggan, the police killing of Mark Duggan, like what that meant then for Black communities in like policing legislation, 24 hour courts, the powers, gangs policing, and the infrastructure that that built, right?

What we're now also seeing is with the Palestine Solidarity Movement, the use of terrorism laws by the state to subdue, like, resistance that we're seeing. I'm not really sure that the state would react in the same way following what happened over the summer. Like, yeah, we've seen people imprisoned. Um, however many arrests following, you know, what happened with the hotels and the far right mobilisations. But they don't seem to have an agenda to respond to that. Because they're actually seeing it as something that's helpful to them.

And I find that really interesting, and I also think it's really funny that people have like, been advocating for those people who did that over the summer, the far right, to be locked up. As if there isn't loads of black and brown people in prison! Who are now going to be locked up with these people who were happy to set hotels on fire. So I, I think it's really interesting, like, that idea of like, yeah, protect the public, lock up the fascists. What about the public that are already behind bars? Like, and what that means?

It, there's, I think, legislation, populism and how that works in politics and in the mainstream, and how the state use popular narratives of the public to push their agenda, really interesting. And how we've seen that happen now over the summer. Especially with Keir Starmer being Prime Minister, right? Mr. Top Cop. And how he utilizes legislation when it comes to like arrests and convictions. Really interested to see what happens in the next... Interested being the wrong word. We need a new word for interested.

Anna: Yeah, and it's so illustrative, isn't it, that like, these outbursts of racial violence are like dealt with through criminalization, as if they're some kind of anomaly. And like, that comparison to the 2011 riots is really interesting. It's like, these events are so obviously reactions to like massive structural problems of poverty and like social crisis. And then for the state to respond to that by, like, this kind of shock and outrage and like, locking people up, when like the very situation is coming from the state.

So it makes sense that like, in the absence of the state offering any kind of solution to these like massive social problems, that people would turn to the far right. When the far right are saying like, well, this is the root of the crisis, it's migrants or whatever. And like, this is what we can do about it. And kind of offering something in response to people's material needs where, like, nothing else is being offered.

Jamil: But I think the thing is, about the providance work, is it's not, it's not like they've actually got all the resources to provide the material... But it's that... it's a community, isn't it? They're giving a really clear story and a really clear sense of self when everything else, all of our lot are saying the world's burning, the far right are on the rise, you know, duh, duh, duh, duh, what the fuck do we do?

Like the whole conversation on the left is one that comes from crisis. You know what I mean? Like there's, there's no joy, really, [00:30:00] in, in the conversations that I am around. There's constantly, you know, this is bad and we must change it. This is bad and we must change it. And think at least this is harking back to this like, you know, well, we once had something. You know what I mean, we once had something.

And it's like the whole 'Make America Great Again'. It's the same thing about the Brexit line. The three words like 'Take Back Control'. And it's like, you know, they're offering the solution to a bunch of people who are overwhelming people who are disenfranchised. The political system hasn't worked for generations for communities. And, you know, they're offering this myth of like, we might be able to just about do something here. Do you know what I mean? Like, if we get rid of those, we can take back our country. I don't know. So it's like, it's that meta story. And we don't have a story. Like we, what do we say?

And like, what is the story of this country? And who tells it? You know, everyone's got their own in and we'll all have our own ways of looking at, you know, what, what is England to you and all the rest of it. But to the right, it constantly goes back to this idea of, you know, 'when it was ours'. When, you know, when we had control over our nation and this, this, this, this.

And even though we know that is generally a lie, because the people that are saying that weren't alive in the 1930s, the 1940s, the 1950s, but like this idea that somehow back then, you know, before everyone arrived here, that there was this green and pleasant England. And, you know, and it was, it was safe and it was beautiful and your kids could play outside and you knew your neighbours and they'd knock on, you could borrow a pint of milk. And it's this wonderful nostalgic idea that doesn't actually take into account, like, probably how horrible and hard it was to be a poor person growing up from anywhere, from, you know what I mean, 17th century pastoral lands to Victorian fucking mills and all the rest of it, to 1950s post World War II living in the middle of the estate.

You know, when we think about deportation now, like Britain First, they got asked recently, if you could summarize your political philosophy in three words, what would it be? And their line was Deport Them All. And then last night, Starmer released, it was a Labour Party press release and it came out in the evening and it said, "Keir Starmer's going to announce the three largest deportations the UK has ever seen". And that was the official press release. And it's like, this really just like really cheap idea that somehow the way that we are going to get agency in this country is that we need to deport people. Get rid of them. As if somehow stopping the few thousands of people that arrive is going to actually make a systemic difference to the lives of people in this country. So it is just a magician's trick and nobody's actually countering it.

And I think, for example, with deportation, it's like people forget the deportation has been used for centuries by the British state. And it was used against white working class people for generations. And people forget that, like, during the 1800s, you know, the whole idea of people being shipped off to Tasmania and Australia and the Commonwealth were white poor people. And it wasn't just like the Dickens era of like kids who would rob bread. It was anybody who was campaigning for the right to vote. Anybody who was campaigning for the right to a five day working week, to get children out of mills. Organised white working class communities who challenged the king and challenged whatever the powers that be. You were, if they weren't executed, you were deported. With the Tolpuddle Martyrs in the 1830s and the Chartists. Like literally waves of working class organisers who were literally just breaking curfew and marching on the streets with banners, were, if they weren't cut down with a sabre like they were in 1816, they were shipped off in shackles to Tasmania. For basic, just, you know, the beginnings of working class organisation. Years before the right to vote was even, you know, passed over.

So I think like... And then you can go back, if we're going to go back even further, the first wave of people ever deported from this country, the biggest and first mass expulsion of people was in 1290 and it was the Jewish community. And the Jewish community were literally en masse told, leave and never come back. And it wasn't until 300 years later that I think it was Queen Elizabeth or whatever, turned around and said, well, you can come back now. For various other reasons, because they were economically useful and the rest, and the empire was expanding and we needed more people who, you know, lots of things.

But, um, it was 1290 and it's interesting when you look at like the parallels, like, the, the argument that they were using to get rid of the Jewish community was that, you know, they're insidious. They're, they're not part of our culture. They don't know how to assimilate, um, and they are killing our kids. And this idea of them killing our kids, isn't like an abstract one. It is like, it's historical record. There were numerous cases of, uh, where children would die. You know what I mean, we're talking about the plague years and you know, 1290, children would die en masse.

Um, but there's a famous story of a boy who was found in a forest in Lincoln. And no one knows how he died, they just found a dead kid in the middle of the forest in Lincoln. And the Bishop and the local players decided that this would be a perfect opportunity to blame it on the Jewish community for various reasons. The main reason being that it would establish Lincoln as a pilgrimage site, which was very economically viable, to get Christians from across the country marching to this land to basically, you know, dedicate themselves to the death of his boy. So basically, long story short, there was an edict that went out and the Lincoln bishop, uh, blamed the Jewish community. And after that, there were waves of other, you know, unexplained deaths that were attributed to the Jewish community. You know, this insidious group of people coming here, killing our kids. And then in 1290, they were all expelled.

And the reason I mention that is if you think back to the death of, forgive me for not knowing their names, but the three young girls who were killed in August, who were stabbed to death. [00:35:00] Um, that was the catalyst for the riots. Um, very similar kind of circumstance in terms of, you know. Three kids killed. This time, not in unspecific circumstances. We know exactly how they were killed. But the very next day, there was a very manufactured and very quick attempt to blame that on this rogue Islam, the Islamic community, the Muslims, all the rest of it. When it was a young Christian kid. And it was very interesting how not just quickly that was like picked up online, but how that was repeated en masse and believed.

And it's a similar thing about, you know, this blood libel. And I think That's the thing about the far right is that it really does come back to like really, really guttural instincts that they're preying on, which is like, you know, our, our kids are not safe. The elderly are not safe. You know, and this whole misogynist, you know, our women are not safe, this, this, this. And it comes down to like, just really intimate things.

And I think the thing about the the left is like, we can't really be entertaining... You know, it's not healthy to entertain and to play in that landscape. Because one, we know it's just futile and it's nonsense. I'm not here to have arguments about my right to exist. I will have arguments about immigration. You know what I mean? As somebody who's worked in border abolition, as someone who's worked in refugee and asylum support, I have complete, like, respect for why somebody will have concerns in a country that is allegedly in, you know, deficit and can't afford to build homes and can't afford to build schools. I can counter that argument. We're not going to have conversations about, you know, blood, bodies and religion.

But I think, like, for me, the reason that the tenants union are in an interesting position is because we can bring it back to the home. And the home is a really intimate sphere. And I think when we bring it back to like, why is your home not safe? And we make a really clear relationship between the fact that, like, it has got nothing to do with the things that you're talking about there. It's the housing provider. It's years of gentrification and it's the liberalisation of planning regulation. There's really clear things that are happening and have happened, from the introduction of the Right to Buy scheme and this, there's so much that's happened that we can draw really clear pictures of like, this is why you, one, don't feel safe in your home and why you think that your kids are never going to be able to own one. And if they are, it certainly won't be in the community that they grew up in.

You know, who's controlling the market? Who's controlling your houses? Who's controlling your schools? Who's controlling your education? And I think like, it is not the Ahmeds or the Abisolas or people coming from the Congo or people coming from the Middle East. It's like bringing it right back to, like, who actually has authority over the things that we need to survive. Those are conversations that we can have. And the answers, once we, you know, wash the mud off it, it's really clear that it's got nothing to do with the thing that the far right are talking about.

And it's like, half of these people are hurt, and want to burn the world down. But like, you know, turn them in the right direction, you know, they might burn something of interest down, you know what I mean? [Laughter].

[Music: Aum by K Monday]

Anna: Thanks so much to Jamil, Zara, and Dale for such a brilliant conversation. And we're gonna be back for part 2, where we talk more about what it actually looks like to fight fascism at the community level. We think about what we can learn from anti-fascism in East London in the 1930s, and how to build solidarity with people susceptible to racist narratives. We discuss the atomization of life in Britain, the aftermath of the miners' strike, the loss of shared spaces, and the need for robust community relationships in fighting far right radicalization. We talk about the kind of conversations and experiences that can counter racism in communities, and how we can build, rather than react, in light of the crises we face. See you for part two.

Podcast

Community Organisers in Conversation

Antifascism part 1: I predict a riot

Subscribe:

Episode notes & links:

Transcript, part 1